Curse

EFGJack · Apr 18, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by KUM

So I gues the issue still is, how can you prevent Dhuum from DP'ing you out without resorting to clovers, even tough they're cheap as shit, and can't even be concidered a con.

Just sacrifice a hero at the start and micro RoD to keep everyone at +10%, it works fine even if it's pita to keep checking on everyone's dp/morale.

Jeydra · Apr 19, 2011, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

Just sacrifice a hero at the start and micro RoD to keep everyone at +10%, it works fine even if it's pita to keep checking on everyone's dp/morale.

I swear this is such a gentle but ultimately firm rebuke to get me to try UW again. But it's true, of course. I guess I should and just not be lazy and micro RoD ...

I've learned more and more about UW and the tactics required to do it, but execution is tremendously difficult. 4H is without much doubt the single hardest quest in the game (other than The Nightman Cometh, at least, but I must've tried 4H over 30 times and I've only gotten to Dhuum twice), at least if it's done the Muddy Terrain way. Time is just so short, precise micro so necessary, and yes - random factors to take into account too.

It sucks as well that I have to deliberately run a subpar teambuild to maximize my chance of killing Dhuum. Spending 30 minutes to get to Plains and wiping is still better than spending 2 and a half hours in UW to get to Dhuum then failing ... and unfortunately there's no precedent I can build off on. If I could I'd run mass casters as usual, but I have no idea if mass casters can survive Dhuum. Judgment does about 110 damage to AL 70 characters, so even with "Stand Your Ground!" up it might blow through the team.

Things I hope someone with experience can help with:

1. "Can't Touch This!" does not stop Dhuum's Touch, but does it reduce Dhuum's Touch output (that is, the number of times Dhuum uses Touch)? That's what I'm reading from Foxbat's and Reformed's posts. It seems Foxbat, using CTT, suffered from fewer Touch of Dhuum's. That does not contradict Reformed's post, because fewer (not zero) Touches will still force DP removal eventually. If CTT does reduce Dhuum's Touch output then it's a small victory, and I'll probably find a slot for it somewhere in the team.
2. Can I get away with 2 Kaolai's, 2 Spirit Lights and 1 Life vs. Dhuum (with mass summons, of course)? If not, how much pure redbar will I need?
3. With a pure ST Prot Rit, can I get away with not micro'ing Shelter?
4. Is there a reliable way to choose which hero dies against Dhuum, other than making that hero one of numbers #1, #2 and #3?

To be honest I think questions 2 and 3 need me to get to Dhuum and test it directly. Which makes me kick myself even more for successfully failing Demon Assassin today with all the difficult quests already done

Chthon · Apr 19, 2011, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

2. Can I get away with 2 Kaolai's, 2 Spirit Lights and 1 Life vs. Dhuum (with mass summons, of course)? If not, how much pure redbar will I need?

Maybe. The thing with PwK is that it's a quick heal (given hero reflexes), but it's no so much a big heal, and the recharge is problematic. Do the math I guess: Take Judgment's damage against your softest team member, multiply by 5, subtract 2x PwK, subtract ~1/2 of Life's maximum heal. Does that leave you with enough hp to take the next scythe hit and not die?

Quote:

3. With a pure ST Prot Rit, can I get away with not micro'ing Shelter?

Depends on whether you can survive and heal the damage from Judgment

I'd be really impressed to see Shelter eat the first hit off Judgment and then get microed fast enough to eat the last hit too.

Quote:

4. Is there a reliable way to choose which hero dies against Dhuum, other than making that hero one of numbers #1, #2 and #3?

Eh... I dunno. Maybe set the victim to aggressive and everyone else to avoid combat?

----

Another random thought: Monsters in UW generally don't heal very effectively. Besides the smites, nothing has more healing than native regen plus AoR/Healing Spring/PBond. Perhaps a winning strategy might be to approach UW like a turtle. Bring just enough damage to kill smites and Dhuum's summons, and tons of healing, mitigation, and cleaning. Fight 4H at the reaper and prioritize the horsemen themselves before they divert/PBlock too many skills.

Outerworld · Apr 19, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I'm pretty sure if you flag the heroes into the hall without stepping in yourself and equip the ones you want dead with a vamp weapon then they can come back as ghosts before you even start the fight.

Reformed · Apr 19, 2011, 09:33 PM // 21:33

CTT doesn't do anything at all not even frequency. There's never been a point in the dozens of runs I've done as a physical down there that I can't remember pinging for DP/reversal at least a few times.

The main point of having the skill to begin with was honestly negating Throw Dirt a side effect of which was also getting rid of Star Burst and Shock.

Life Bringing · Apr 19, 2011, 10:09 PM // 22:09

CTT stops the touch, but it doesnt send it to recharge. So the amount of touches you take depend on how intent Dhuum is on spamming touch

Reformed · Apr 19, 2011, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

CTT stops the touch, but it doesnt send it to recharge. So the amount of touches you take depend on how intent Dhuum is on spamming touch

The skill never fails. When CTT stops a touch skill the monitor acts exactly as though the skill was interrupted complete with a click. This never happens with Touch of Dhuum (Headbutt as an example of when it behaves normally) so something is a bit screwy. I'd notice if he was spamming through it since I have him targeted for melee attacks the entire fight.

Killed u man · Apr 20, 2011, 12:02 AM // 00:02

The 3 biggest issues in my book, which currently cause for 95% of my runs to fail (I steamroll everything, but I micro like a mad man)

-You can only assign hotkeys to heroes 1 -> 3. This obviously meaning that all your heavy micro heroes (which in my build are 5) must be on spot 1 -> 3, the rest must be micro'd through clicking, which sucks ass.

-You can only flag heroes 1 -> 3, so 4H alot of the time simply becomes luck fest on wether or not heroes get caught in AoE. Obviously, I'm reflexing heroes out of AoE, and I succeed 99% of the time, but even stuff like fireballspikes completely dominates my team, as one fireball drops my heroes to +-60% HP. Worse even, the enemy's AI seems to be particularly good at finding balled up heroes, so 4H really does become a "kill them before they kill you"-fest because Anet simply doesn't give us the option to spread out all our heroes.

-Heroes ignoring commands. This latter one is probably the largest reason why I loose so much. I'm forcing an Infuse, Spirit Tranfer, Spirit Bond or whatever "last resort" skill on the Reaper, and my heroes litterealy stand there doing RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO all. Obviously, some people will claim 'they were knocked in AoE', or try to pass the blame on shortcommings on my end, but there have litterealy been times when the reaper is at 60% HP (so still good to go), and I pre-infuse (Heroes got ER anyways, so he can spend it), and by the time he reacts, the Reaper is already dead.

I've waited upwards of 8 seconds for a Hero who is in range, not Pblocked or whatever and not getting AoE'd or KD'd, to use a skill, only to watch the Reaper die in front of my eyes due to a single Meteor Shower.

Being an ex-top 20 Hero Battler, I obviously know the severe limitations of Heroes, but I've never gotten over the fact that Anet implements a "force" mechanic on a Hero (Which should have priority above everything) which apparently has got a relatively low priority, and it keeps getting me frustrated, time and time again.

That alone is the reason I've currently given up on UW, due to 8 failures by heroes ignoring direct pings in-game.

Jeydra · Apr 20, 2011, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Another random thought: Monsters in UW generally don't heal very effectively. Besides the smites, nothing has more healing than native regen plus AoR/Healing Spring/PBond. Perhaps a winning strategy might be to approach UW like a turtle. Bring just enough damage to kill smites and Dhuum's summons, and tons of healing, mitigation, and cleaning. Fight 4H at the reaper and prioritize the horsemen themselves before they divert/PBlock too many skills.

It's hard to believe 4H can be done by holding at the Reaper. Even applying the tactic where you fight 3 mobs instead of 4, you'll still have a tough time beating through 6 Terrorwebs and 3 Horsemen. If they all came from one side, maybe, but they're coming from two sides and there're more Terrorwebs and Skeletons (who are the deadliest creature in the UW ...) coming soon after. And Smites are already hard enough to kill with physicals, so losing more damage is unappealing.

Right now there's about a ~70-80s window between accepting the quest and the time the stalled wave hits the Reaper. It takes about 35s to kill all Terrorwebs and both Horsemen - it's actually more random than that, but 35s is usually enough to wipe out enough of the wave that you can safely pull back to Reaper. That leaves just the running time to make up for, and of course after you get back to Reaper you need to aggro the incoming mob before they hit Reaper so Reaper doesn't get Meteor Showered etc.

Can you do a feasibility test about holding at Reaper? Run something standard, but with more defense than usual. See if it's possible with some luck / micro / tactics. It doesn't have to be successful, but a close failure still means it's possible.

Can anyone confirm Outerworld's post?

And if CTT does nothing at all to Dhuum's Touch, not even reducing its frequency, then I guess I'll drop the skill. Sure it beats Star Burst and stuff, but short of that stupid time where Terrorwebs wiped me at Demon Assassin, I don't have problems with them.

PS: has anyone killed Dhuum with 7H (NM is fine) without using DP removal? If yes, how did you deal with Touch?

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2011, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Can anyone confirm Outerworld's post?

Yes; just make sure they have the Dhuum symbol and when they die they'll become souls.

Jeydra · Apr 20, 2011, 03:26 PM // 15:26

A solution is so close I can almost taste it!!

I predict by the end of this week, someone will post a screenshot of a UW HM clear, 7H with no mercenaries and consumables. It's only a matter of time now. It may take a long time, but it will be done eventually.

The spirit of innovation lives on.

Carboplatin · Apr 20, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

you can bring blood ritual on a hero and have them sac and die before the fight starts, outside the hall of judgement too.

Navis · Apr 21, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

If you cannot spare a skill for saccing or don't want to wait until death by vampiric weapon happens, you can even go inside the hall (not with your whole team obviously) to get the "no-rez effect" on your hero, then go fight coldfires/smites you haven't killed on the other side of Ice Wastes. The hero will become a ghost if he dies to them.

I don't remember if the teleporting to the hall option is available at the Mayor when the fight with Dhuum hasn't started yet... But heroes should teleport to you anyway I would think.

Jeydra · Apr 21, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

And the final frontier is conquered!

A tough 20 minute fight, and I couldn't get Gwen to die beforehand because the entire UW run I didn't get a single Vampiric weapon drop, but Dhuum got off a total of only 6 Touches (5 on Jin, which killed her ... and my micro sucks so bad I used Reversal of Death on Hayda). Killing Dhuum's skeletons don't give experience and don't remove DP, which sucks, but with only 6 Touches I survived. Judgement count was something like 3, none of which dropped party health below 50%. Dhuum dropped to near death long before Dhuum's Rest was filled, but I dared not break the status quo and let someone die, instead waiting out the remaining time.

Major credits to:

EFGJack - without him I would never have gotten started with UW. Furthermore, when I quit UW the last time Dhuum Touched me out, he got me started again. He pioneered the first viable way to clear 4H, a way that turned out to be the most effective - in fact the only way - until yesterday, when I tried something new (it worked: look ma, no Muddy Terrain

).
Life Bringing, Higher Minion, Cthon, Ungle and Xenomortis - lots of help with the different quests in UW, especially when I was just starting.
Reformed and Foxbat - for telling me about "Can't Touch This" and its effects against Dhuum.
Xslash - the new tactic I tried on 4H was partly inspired by his method of beating it.
Outerworld - despite never using it, I would've sacrificed Gwen if I could ... and possibly failed the area

.
Khomet Si Netjer - although I wound up largely not using his ideas, he did suggest "Never Surrender!".
EFGJack - really, without him this clear would never have happened.
And all other various people who have helped me. Just about every semi-viable idea in this thread I have scrutinized and sometimes tried. Some worked, others failed, but in their own way I learned more and more about UW from them.

This closes the final 7H frontier. I've spent over two weeks thinking up different combinations. I've had times when I simply could not stand UW anymore, and I've had times when I was so close, but made a mistake and had to start over. It's the end of an era. Heartfelt thanks and congratulations to all involved!

EFGJack · Apr 21, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

geheh, nice. now I need to l2p and get done with it, too.

Xenomortis · Apr 21, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Congratulations.
What was the Summoning Stone? Merchant?

Jeydra · Apr 21, 2011, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Yes, I always pick up all items so I need Mercantile summoning stones to clear my inventory every now and then. If I remember right this particular Merchant died in Pools, and was never in the Dhuum fight. Jin's bar is the same as Margrid's, but with Needling Shot instead of Favourable Winds. It was mostly unnecessary, however.

I'll write what I did quest-by-quest sometime.

Vazze · Apr 21, 2011, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Grats Jeydra. I am working on a similar build but I still haven't made it to Dhuum yet. (I am well prepared for him though.) Hopefully I will have some time during the weekend.

Chthon · Apr 22, 2011, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Congratulations. I'm looking forward to hearing the details.

Jeydra · Apr 22, 2011, 03:52 AM // 03:52

That screenshot is impressive. How did it work? Did you hold at Reaper? You have Muddy Terrain and Barbed Trap, but if so I'm impressed that with little damage output (two Smite Monks, two PI Mesmers) you could stomp one side before the other side can get there.

Anyway ...

Unwanted Guests - I strongly advise against trying to gank any of the Keepers at the start. The monster's damage output is too high, although the Keepers can be focused down they also need to be called for that to happen. Since you're taking the quest, you won't be nearby to do the calling. Instead wait for the Vengefuls to patrol and then spike out the Keepers.

From the Labyrinth Reaper, the most threatening Keeper is the one in the middle. It's possible it aggro's onto Reaper, so kill that one first. The Aatxe WILL aggro onto any spirits left behind and then move on to Reaper, spirits that your heroes will use to kill Terrorwebs etc. The Aatxe will also aggro onto EBVAS. Try to kill your own spirits by recasting them, and try not to use EBVAS. If the Aatxe aggro on Reaper chances are very good you will fail. The Keeper at the entrance to Mountains can be killed by teleporting to Plains and approaching from the back, as can the Keepers at Wastes and Vale.

Before making a move on Keeper, micro Shelter and Displacement. If you aggro Aatxe mistakenly, hit Fall Back and scram. Set heroes to guard for this one.

4H - this is the hardest quest in the game. The new tactic I used is this: before taking quest, stall one side as normal (I just used Pain + Bloodsong) and then flag heroes directly onto one spawn on that same side. Drop spirits, set all heroes to aggressive, take quest, hit "Stand Your Ground!" and wait as long as you can. You can watch the other wave incoming. Once they get close enough, teleport to Labyrinth and back again. Time is of the essence; you will need to return just in time to take aggro before Reaper. Flag heroes apart once you get back, and put down Shelter ASAP.

Hopefully the other side will be stalled long enough with all the spirits down now. When I tried it, I couldn't wipe the un-stalled side fast enough, but one of the great advantages of all ranged characters is that I can switch targets really fast. GDW, AP, YMLAD and EBVAS meant Terrorwebs died in a few seconds when called. Spike out the monsters coming from the stalled side, and KD Star Burst / Meteor Shower with YMLAD.

Kill the Skeletons first when they show up; otherwise Terrorwebs before Horsemen.

Imprisoned Spirits - relative to 4H, this is easy. Set up spirits on the top spawn, then flag heroes apart near the bottom spawn. Set heroes to aggressive. Micro as many spirits as you can before taking quest and running down. Bottom spawn should be annihilated pretty fast. They may not be annihilated completely, but they will take casualties quickly. Once top spawn gets near, cancel flags and dive in to kill top spawn. YMLAD Star Burst if possible, and micro heals on spirits if necessary. Bottom spawn should be stalled by residual spirits at this point. Once top spawn dies, the rest of it is a straightforward fight.

Don't teleport away at once though, because there's another spawn coming. Once that spawn dies, you can leave.

Servants of Grenth - this mission is way overrated for me, and I've never failed it. Once again, before taking quest, flag heroes apart where the spawns are going to be. Micro spirits, set heroes to aggressive and take quest. Hit "Stand Your Ground!" immediately after taking quest, and you should have plenty of time to get back to team. Actually even if you don't get back to team you should be fine: I had one run where a Terrorweb broke aggro and headed for King Frozenwind, and I chased him; nobody I left behind died. I don't understand how anyone can fail this one, but I know some people have had problems ... still I haven't watched videos, so I don't know what happened.

As always call targets to force AP triggers, and flood the battlefield with EBVAS. With all ranged characters, spike power / change of targets should be easy.

Dhuum - Before going in, flag heroes #1, #2 and #3 in. Set up spirits. Get GDW up on two of the physicals. Disable Splinter Weapon, all hard resses and move them to slot #3 on the skillbar, so that if the hero dies you have Encase Skeleton disabled too. The moment Dhuum turns hostile is a dangerous moment, because he isn't knocklocked at that point and you may not be in range to KD.

Refresh Shelter and Displacemenet whenever necessary, and concentrate on getting GDW on physicals. If Dhuum summons his minions, call and kill them quickly, but save YMLAD to keep Dhuum himself frozen. The teambuild will survive Judgement, and with Displacement and Shelter up, Dhuum's attacks won't do anything. If someone gets Touched out, micro DP removal. "Stand Your Ground!" should be up almost all the time (I ran at 14 Command, using dual Superiors), to further smooth things out.

Dhuum should be KD'ed most of the time, and so no threat.